starter surprise

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

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bubbachicken
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:19 pm

starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:51 pm

Ok, now I have another fun one. The starter, for no apparent reason, is not being powered. As in, NO power. The battery is fully charged. Now there are some symptoms, but not sure if they are indicators, and are as follows:

1 The neutral and oil lights light up when the key is on, but especially the neutral light is very dim (the oil light seems barely dimmer than normal, but that may be the sunshine on the panel).

2 Two rides ago, I blew my low beam headlight filament when I started the bike at work, and after it warmed up a little I revved it a couple times to attempt to get the high idle down. Of course, it took choke management to do it, but as a noob I still make mistakes...

3 The bike has shown NO sign of starter weakness at all unless I tried to crank it without starting (I assumed it was simply the wiring heating up, if it cooled off a couple minutes, the starter fired right up!).

4 The horn works, but it is weaker than normal, I think.

5 Did I mention the battery is fully charged?

6 I have a fuel loss issue and some problems with choke, but I think the tees I keep reading about need checked, I have not checked them out yet, but that is for another thread..

I am at a bit of a loss that my electrical suddenly is weaker, and though I get lights, I am evidently not strong enough to get starter solenoid power AT ALL when the bike worked fine last time I rode it (other than the aformentioned running out of fuel at 72 miles on the "full" tank). would there be a way that something could limit my power suddenly on a non-running (at that moment) bike that would disable the starter, limit lighting somewhat, and still have a perfect battery? I am going to check the cables now, but I am at a loss as to how they could suddenly loosen....

Any thoughts?

totem12
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Re: starter surprise

Postby totem12 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:01 pm

Bubba....do you know what the battery [u]voltage[u] is????
sometimes what we think is not always what is....take your charger off and try checking your battery a few hours later....you should have 12.6-12.8 volts or around there...if you have a bad cell you may still have the resting voltage but it will fall to 10v +/- when you try to use the battery..
just want to start out here at the first base...

bubbachicken
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Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:17 pm

Totem, not sure, I will check in the morning and see, then I will know for sure. I keep the maintainer on the battery all the time, when the bike is home, and I only got the battery a month ago. But it could have a bad cell I suppose. I will check, thanks! I may be overlooking something as simple as a defective battery. That would be sad, as I sell the batteries every day....

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Folsoml
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Re: starter surprise

Postby Folsoml » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:53 pm

Have you cleaned all the electrical connections on the bike? Make sure to get both handlebar switches and behind the fuse panel. It could be a dirty contact in your starter button.
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Volker_P
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Re: starter surprise

Postby Volker_P » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:46 am

Yes, clean the connections!
Not only look at them but remove all the thick battery and starter cables at both ends, clean the surfaces and reinstall. Then you know what you have. Not too bad with 30 year old electrics in any case. Even not to do that for everything else step by step as soon as you find time.

Another option is to crank without ignition for 10s and then feel for soemthing getting hot, either cables or contacts or starter itself.
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bubbachicken
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Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:16 am

Volker, that is what I am going into today, but until last night, after my little run out of regular capacity (and forgetting to switch to reserve) move the other day, I got ZERO starter activity. Last night I got a minor single whirr. Noplace NEAR turning the engine over in actuality. Maybe today it will be perfect and start right up. In any case, I touched NO electrical devices nor connections, and the starter got the single whir, the lights got brighter, etc... It was so strange... almost like a bad ground someplace got better just by moving the seat and tank. By today it might even work!

It may well be a connection or a shorting wire that sits in the locations of the frame near the tank or seat. I will have a goodly portion of the day today to check, and while there, I am going through all those contacts. Just for good measure, I will also take a look at the ones in the headlight bucket too (which actually weren't even dusty when I put the headlight in and repaired the turn signals (by reconnecting the taped up and separated signal connectors).

Folsoml, I will take a look at those switches too, never can tell... I really need to replace the ignition switch anyway, though. It has those little tabs that seem to have slipped, and I occasionally have to play with it to get the lights to light up so that I can start the bike. It may well have something to do with this situation.

Just in case, I got a tool to check that situation, and the charging situation as well, from work yesterday. I have an ohmmeter, but this is a simple tool that can check it all from the battery without adjusting dials and such. I am not even sure my multimeter still works anyway, after all my moves of late. It has gotten banged around some. Another thing I need to check on, I suppose...

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Folsoml
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Re: starter surprise

Postby Folsoml » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:44 pm

bubbachicken wrote:
It has those little tabs that seem to have slipped, and I occasionally have to play with it to get the lights to light up so that I can start the bike. It may well have something to do with this situation.



This can very likely be the cause of ALL your problems. While you are cleaning connections, find every single one on the bike and clean it up as well. One little dirty connection can cause a world of problems.
Have a problem with your CB650? Have a technical question? Click here!


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bubbachicken
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Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Well, the day went for shyte... All day at the doctor and in town, got almost nothing accomplished here. I did manage to remove the original choke cable again, reinstall the bubba cable (but with a good end, now I have to bind it someplace, it is so smooth this time that the choke spring pulls the choke back).

The fuel cutoff solution worked, sortof. The extra valve inline makes too much fuel line under the tank, and I have to get a clamp and remedy that.

But the big deal, the ignition, presented another puzzle. This time, I got in once case dim lights on front turn signals and no flash nor lights on rear signals (but with brake/tail) plus I had headlight, then I reset the key and this time got weak turn signals. It IS the ignition switch. That is the only thing different, and it was within seconds of one another that I tried this, the only thing I did was turn it off then back on.

So...

I am considering, since I have to pull it anyway to clean it, and since the tabs are bad, and I have to clamp it together anyway, just taking the thing entirely apart and giving it a thorough scrubbing internally, look for loose wires, etc. Is there anything inside that can fall out and ruin my day (because it had to be set in null gravity or with some obscure and unheard of tool or something) or is it safe for me to take that thing apart (with photo documentation of course) and clear it all out cleanly? If I can do that safely, and the lock mechanism does not explode or something, I could make positive that it was all clean, test it with the clamp, then silicone it together with a drainhole in the bottom or something, and have a better situation. Am I better off just cleaning external contacts in it?

By the way, all my fuses appear to be good. Still no starter solenoid whirr though, even when I have blinkers. The headlight just dims and acts like my excellent battery is dead (it shows full charge still, by the way, I checked today with a meter, the battery is not the issue, and the connections to it are clean as well, VERY clean).

bubbachicken
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Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:23 pm

Volker_P wrote:Yes, clean the connections!
Not only look at them but remove all the thick battery and starter cables at both ends, clean the surfaces and reinstall. Then you know what you have. Not too bad with 30 year old electrics in any case. Even not to do that for everything else step by step as soon as you find time.

Another option is to crank without ignition for 10s and then feel for soemthing getting hot, either cables or contacts or starter itself.


I just had an epiphany! I just realized what you meant with the feeling for hot wires. The short would heat up as the starter button was held whether the starter engaged or not :wink: ...

Well, as I am almost positive now that the ignition switch is the culprit, I will check it first thing in the morning, then hit all the other connections, checking the starter after each set. Eventually I will locate the issue, I am sure. I will resist the urge (if possible) to just hold the start button until something smokes, though, because I don't want to buy another of those pesky CDI boxes, and I am skeered of frying one. Still, it is interesting and would be an effective method, as long as I located the issue before the fire broke out! :lol:

bubbachicken
Posts: 368
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Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:07 pm

OK, plug wrench ordered (killed the one I bought earlier today, it is now junk). I have the real deal coming in now.

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Volker_P
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Re: starter surprise

Postby Volker_P » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:26 am

First you need something like a stable electric system.
So first of all take care of your ignition switch.
Have a look at the Ignition issue... thread for some more details.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

bubbachicken
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:54 am

Volker_P wrote:First you need something like a stable electric system.
So first of all take care of your ignition switch.
Have a look at the Ignition issue... thread for some more details.


Agreed, going to take a good gander at it now, see what needs done, and what goodies I need from the store. I just did not want to pop it the rest of the way open (if that is what is going on) and have 20 little bits fall out, all of whom must be in there in a particular order, wait weeks for another switch to arrive, install it and STILL have an electrical issue, that's all...

I might even be able to leave it in place, depending on how accessible the contacts are, and effect the necessary repair if the switch has started to separate. Wouldn't THAT be something.

One thing I am wondering though. If in fact it turns out that the switch is not repairable from the outside and I do in fact get a new one, is there any supplier of fuel caps out there for these bikes that does not have a lock on their cap? It would be one less key to keep up with (assuming the tank is keyed ONLY to the associated switch that came with the bike...)... I am not in love with the locking cap to begin with, and it really is a pain in the butt to deal with when it is cold out and I have to try to break the ice free of the cover plate so that I can get the key into the danged thing.

bubbachicken
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:26 pm

Wellll... CRAP...

I started going through electrical connections, starting at the battery (so I knew it was good) and then looking at the ignition switch. The switch is INTACT, and functions correctly. I started then hitting every connection I could locate under the seat and tank, in the headlight bucket, in the column, even behind the fuse box (which was perfect, this bike for it's trouble is in very good clean shape, which makes this all the more frustrating).

I went to the main fuse box, checked the main fuse (of course it was good, but I was there, so...), and I unhooked the smaller connection, the one under the alternator one. It had one leg with a LOT of green corrosion on it. I sprayed it with cleaner, then took a blade to it to get the chunks loose and hit it with cleaner again, and repeated the process for a while. Once it was clean I greased it and reconnected it.

Then I tried to check the alternator connector. The scrapes and broken plastic crumbling from when the PO tried to clean it should have given me a clue. I tried to open it, and no luck. That one could be welded shut for all I know, and is likely corroded to heck and back. Any ideas how to separate the halves without destroying the connector altogether? It still has some integrity, but I am not sure it will take much more than I have been giving it before it fails and shatters.

It looks like that is the only connector that was not replaced on the bike, the rest are whiter or entirely white and shiny, that one is pretty yellowed and the surface is VERY chalky. I suppose it could have been heat, but...??

I hear a soft click when I hit the starter switch, under the main fuse mount there is a round canister within a rubber shroud, it seems to be making the noise. Perhaps a starter solenoid??? I lost my blinkers again, too, by the way...

I am pulling the battery and taking it to get it load tested at work. I have a sneaking suspicion about it. All the remaining connections that I could access externally without the seat or tank installed are good, clean, and now greased. I keep thinking back to the load test on the battery...

bubbachicken
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:50 pm

OK.

Found bad wire. Yellow wire, topmost in plug to the regulator (I think, two harnesses, one larger than the other, next to main fuse). The stuck harness connection has been freed, it was MELTED to the other side. I managed to part them, the uppermost yellow wire was corroded and burned almost in two. It did not take much to finish the job. Removed insulation back about an inch and a half to get lots of good clean wire at both ends on the bad circuit connection ends, put in weather proof bullet connections on those two wires (remainder still connect through the connector), and took battery to load test unit at the shop. Checked it, the danged thing was at 47% charge! It showed full at home, but what the hell.... I suppose 13 v is not the same here as it is at work????

In any case, battery is charging OFF THE BIKE, and I am handling my fuel line issue now, draining the fuel and rerouting the main line to include a good cutoff valve, an inline filter, and removing a LOT of extra length (maybe 6-9 inches of extra line in there, I wanted to be sure to have enough evidently...). I sure hope this fixes everything. I greased every wire connection I could locate. The remainder of the wiring seems intact and actually in great shape. I am sure glad I beat on that last connector one last time. This would have taken forever...

Hopefully, I should be good to go after the battery finishes topping off.

I wonder though, can a rotten wire like that damage the charging system components? The black goo in the regulator seemed intact, I pulled it from the bike to make sure. I remounted it after making the connection good again, but I am just wondering, in case things still are screwed (I could not imagine that prior connection allowing the bike to work)...

bubbachicken
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Re: starter surprise

Postby bubbachicken » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Are there any connections internally, like inside the casings of the engine assembly? I sure hope not...


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