GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

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Pinhead
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Pinhead » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:20 pm

Hello Lou!! Welcome tot he forum!!

In case anybody missed it, Lou is the author of this mod!

I have one question with regards to the "booster" circuit, specifically where the voltage is added.

On my bike (7-pin modules), I added the voltage just between ground and the negative side of the pickups, thus adding a 1.4v bias to the total signal.

Such as in this diagram.
Image

You show the "booster" being attached directly to terminal G. Which is more advantageous and why?

Loudhvx
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Loudhvx » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:52 pm

Hi Pinhead,
On the 4-pin module design, the extra DC voltage (for the startup boost) is applied directly to the input terminal. That is the G terminal on the 4-pin module. I realize it seems counterintuitive to apply a steady DC voltage to an input which is expecting an AC input. I am using a little trick.

The G terminal is a high-impedance terminal so it will not take much current at all. I use the resistor and the pickup itself to create voltage divider. The DC level at the G terminal, with no pickup induced signal, ends up around 1.5v. This is near the threshold of the dwell-on trigger. Now when the pickup induces a positive voltage pulse to the G terminal, that pulse is added to the DC level on the G terminal, thus the threshold is crossed and dwell begins.

Under normal running, the extra DC level would allow dwell to begin too soon, and as you know ( I read a few of your posts), too long dwell on a low impedance coil, is gonna heat up something. In this case the coil would heat up and the igniter would heat up since it would be deep into it's current-limiting mode. By giving the proper dwell we can avoid both from heating up.

I recall the threshold is different from the 4-pin and the 7-pin, by a volt or so. That is why the resistor and two diodes are needed on the 7-pin modules, whereas the 4-pin module does not need a bias circuit.

The resistor and diodes serve a different purpose on the 7-pin than on the 4-pin. On the 7-pin the resistor and diodes are to make up for the higher threshold on the 7-pin input. On the 4-pin version, the resistors and diodes are to give the pickup signal a boost for starting purposes.

EDIT: I have edited this post heavily based on reviewing my notes on the 7-pin modules.

On the 4-pin design, the boost voltage is removed when the starter button is released. I realize this complicates things, but it was the simplest solution I could think of that would work.
Last edited by Loudhvx on Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pinhead
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Pinhead » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:42 am

The diagram was actually your idea (I emailed you questions regarding using the 7-pin modules a while back). I found that without the constant 1.4v bias the 7-pin modules that I'm using wouldn't even run the engine. I did modify your diagram to show how to make the 7-pin modules work. :)

Loudhvx
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Loudhvx » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:30 am

I'm not sure when you read my post, but I had to edit it after reviewing my notes on the 7-pin modules. I then realized why the extra parts are needed with the 7-pin setup, which made me recall some emails on it... my memory has always been somewhat sketchy... I hope it improves with age :lol: :(

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Volker_P
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Volker_P » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:06 am

Welcome here, Lou! :D
So now also the "father" of this biggest thread in this forum is here. :lol:
I did not try to understand everything so far, but I have a question on this pulser gap. Does 0.6mm provide an optimum also for the standard ignition modules (OKI)? In practice it seems preferential to make it as small as possible.
Why is a certain minimum gap preferential? To avoid "crosstalk" effects at higher rpm?
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forum links to common technical issues

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Loudhvx
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Loudhvx » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:02 pm

Thanks for he welcome :D

Just for reference, the crosstalk I refer to is not electrical crosstalk... such as inductive noise, or RF noise, from one wire to another. It's actually mechanical/magnetic crosstalk created by the "reluctance" of one pickup, transmitted through the iron rotor, and "picked up" by the opposite pickup. If you look at the diagram of the signal pulse I posted, it is the small pulse 180 degrees offset from the main pulse.

The pickup gap being smaller can increase the crosstalk pulse. At certain RPMs, it can affect the operation of the ignition. I had to take the crosstalk into consideration in the design. However, this is mitigated by the fact that the main pulse will also be larger.

With any design, multiple variables have to be juggled and tradeoffs have to be made. Larger signals are easier to work with, and the gap I used for the design was .6 mm, but small variations in the gap won't alter performance noticeably. I think +/- .1 or maybe .2 mm should be ok electrically, as long as there is no metal-to-metal contact.

To get the strongest signal, you want the smallest gap. But there must be a safe minimum gap. The crankshaft flexes like a rubberband during high-load use. This causes considerable wobble at the end of the crank where the advancer is mounted. When the gap is too small, the wobble of the crank will cause the rotor to collide with the pickup. If the rotor has scrape markings, or if the pickups look worn away, then there have been some collisions. So whatever spec Honda has for the gap should be followed. I'm not sure, exactly, where the .6mm number came from. Maybe one of the 750/1100 guys gave me that number.

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Volker_P
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Volker_P » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:59 am

Thanks.
I have some imagination what is inductive coupling in the presence of something like an iron yoke so I think I understand your argument. Maybe an alumina/stainless steel base plate could help to avoid this "crosstalk" signal (*). The question for me is how much also the stock ignitors might be sensitive to this signal.
However so far for me the mechanical contact argument was the only one. To my knowledge, Honda did not give any specification for that gap. 0.6mm sees quite large, I typically use a sheet of paper to set it as close as possible still without contact. I am curious now and I am going to measure my gap. As I am not the really high rpm guy, I might have came through so far disregarding the wobble. In fact the pointer is a good distance from the outer bearing and may develop considerable wobble.

(*)Thought about that again. This is AC, so alumina would rather make it worse. Better use something non-conducting or at least cut the plate to interrupt the induced toroidal current. Appearing only at certain rpm could mean a resonance effect. In this case the heigth of the "crosstalk" peak may considerably depend on rpm close to the resonance frequency and multiples of it.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

Loudhvx
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Loudhvx » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:09 pm

Yes, I think you basically want to get as close as possible to get the best signal, but the mechanical contact is the deciding factor (plus a safety margin). Once you know where the distance will be set, you design the electronics around that (based on the signal generated by that setting). That's how I did it. I don't recall how much I played around with the distance, but it will be in the stock ignition notes if I did.

There is no way to eliminate the crosstalk because the rotor slug is iron (as it has to be) and that is what the magnetic flux is travelling through. That's what couples the two pickups together, basically like a transformer. Whatever happens to one side will be seen on the other side, (but with a large attenuation, unlike a true transformer).

SchoolDaGeek
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby SchoolDaGeek » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:10 pm

As of this uposting, I am a member and this is my first post. I read all of your messages for the scandalous details but I am left with this:

I am upgrading a female freind. She bought the notorious "CB650C"...(psst...a real PERSON!) When I met her she had a fried rectifier, but she wasn't stupid enough not to see it run on a freshly charged battery....long long hard starts, did the full contact cleaning routine, faster starts, etc. Finally with on full choke with an AGM battery at the bike takes a m1:30s to start.

I would like commentarty between the two authors of this thread as to the proper diagram and please keep it on topic. My website is : http://www.natauto.com . There you will find all things precious and new without you lifting a finger. DR100's are 9.99 new and coils are $14.87.

Please stay on topic and finish the topic. I really liked the installation of all of your mods; @Pinhead and @MattD... great job, you could sell those mounting plates themselves for gold.

Just sayin'
Last edited by SchoolDaGeek on Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buy New, Wire Right. BNWR. LOL

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Volker_P
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Volker_P » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:11 am

Just measured my gap: 0.2-0.3mm.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

SchoolDaGeek
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby SchoolDaGeek » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:30 am

The problem I quickly discovered by going to the junkyard is that unless you have a friendly staff there, or you are going to a pick/pull place that you pay an entrance fee to get in the gates, the options are far too extensive to be able to make sense of it all.

A normal junkyard does not pull off the individual coils, they usually sell the entire plate they plug into, and that to them is how they make their money. So from the extensive list of cars that use these coils if you are going to source them from the junkyard, try to make sure you go for a 4cyl vehicle, which will have the coils already mounted side by side on an OEM plate/bracket with the plugs on the side.

As we know, no one yet has kept a 4cyl configuration on the same plate and has been able to snip off the wiring harness far enough back to get something that looks like it was intended to be that way.

The other thing about sourcing from a junkyard is that they like to sell entire distributors together as one unit, and digging in under the cap and rotor to get the HEI modules is a cardinal sin, really not even worth the effort IMO because you have no idea if the module itself was the reason the car went to the junkyard in the first place. I asked the 40yr vets about the modules and they used to buy them by the handfuls for $3 apiece and were included as part of a standard tune up along with the cap and rotor, but once they are in a full distributor being sold at the junkyard they are considered integral to the ASSEMBLY that they want to sell you based on your vehicle.

So in this economy with everyone trying to make a buck, if you "name" your vehicle to them to see if they have the ignition coils already pulled, etc. they see dollar signs based on how slow the day is going for them, they could charge $20 one day for an assembly and $30 the next if they need food on the table.

I have put quite a bit of effort in sorting this all out and though I have nothing against junkyards, I would rather put brand new items into the project to eliminate the possibility of any fried items I bought using twice the amount of effort in going to the junkyard and sorting this all out.

So that is why I recommend National Automotive Lines. All four components shipped to your door for under $60, which is $10 less than Pinhead paid ($20 PER COIL?) in the original post several months back.

And if you are hardcore, there are modules made by all the major suppliers of race equipment that promise you a better spark for $30-$45 OVER normal OEM cost PER MODULE since the most common application is in big block V8s from the 70s/80s like a Corvette. Moroso, Accel, Megafire, and Pertronix....etc.
Buy New, Wire Right. BNWR. LOL

Loudhvx
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Loudhvx » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:11 pm

I paid about $15 per module, and $20 per coil at a retail store.
I was corresponding with someone who was sourcing igniters from a salvage yard, and he couldn't get the ignition working after trying several igniters. Finally he bought a new one and it ran great (this was on a Kaw twin, which uses one igniter and one coil).

The one Pinhead posted is if you are using 7-pin HEI modules.

My original design is if you are using 4-pin HEI modules.
For that one, the details are here:
http://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb/Ignition/CBheiModCavCoil.html

Loudhvx
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Loudhvx » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:18 pm

.2mm gap seems close to me. I think, under high stress, the crank can wobble that much.

But if you never see any wear marks on the rotor or pickup, then I guess it's ok. I designed around .6mm, but .2 or .3 should probably work fine... just estimating here, though.

SchoolDaGeek
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby SchoolDaGeek » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:18 pm

Hi Lou, can't thank you enough for all of your work...

When measuring the "G" terminal pickup for ohms to select the resistor needed, is it measured to the ground of the module? And since there are two does each need to be matched to the appropriate resistor if they measure differently?

And the second deals with the spark plug wires, any notes or thoughts about the 5000ohm caps and whether or not the wires themselves are important to be as close to zero resistance?

I was going to see if I could find a good replacement cable set from a 4cyl car or, if I could use a 10.2mm spiral wound race wire kit, or if I should bite the bullet and pay over $40 like they want for Ebay #390345051799.

Also what spark plug do you use on your bike?

Thx.
Buy New, Wire Right. BNWR. LOL

Fueldrum
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Re: GM HEI: Cheap and Extremely Effective Ignition Upgrade

Postby Fueldrum » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:18 pm

Considering doing this upgrade, but wondering how long those of you who have done it have run with it.

i.e. 6 months no problems, 30 years no problems and so on.

A little paranoid about electrical bits and old Honda CB wiring...apologies. Thanks for the fantastic thread!


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